Comments on: Lessons from the Underground: Begin with the M in mind. http://alexmcmanus.org/2007/10/15/a-lesson-from-the-underground/ On a Quest Into the Mystic... Sun, 14 Mar 2010 06:56:56 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: GODthoughts.net » Atheism, http://alexmcmanus.org/2007/10/15/a-lesson-from-the-underground/comment-page-1/#comment-150499 GODthoughts.net » Atheism, Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:47:09 +0000 http://alexmcmanus.org/index.php/2007/10/15/a-lesson-from-the-underground/#comment-150499 [...] you make disciples “in the loud” or “in the quiet?”  Alex McManus looks at how we in America, primarily, “do church” in contrast with [...] [...] you make disciples “in the loud” or “in the quiet?”  Alex McManus looks at how we in America, primarily, “do church” in contrast with [...]

]]> By: Thoughts of a Thinker » Blog Archive » The Perfect Worship Service? http://alexmcmanus.org/2007/10/15/a-lesson-from-the-underground/comment-page-1/#comment-149864 Thoughts of a Thinker » Blog Archive » The Perfect Worship Service? Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:46:39 +0000 http://alexmcmanus.org/index.php/2007/10/15/a-lesson-from-the-underground/#comment-149864 [...] also learn to make disciples ‘in the quiet’,” writes Alex McManus in a post titled “Lessons from the Underground: Begin with the M in Mind.” I think he has a great point. “The loud” is the more high energy worship or at least [...] [...] also learn to make disciples ‘in the quiet’,” writes Alex McManus in a post titled “Lessons from the Underground: Begin with the M in Mind.” I think he has a great point. “The loud” is the more high energy worship or at least [...]

]]> By: the city of voices · Church Planter's Forum -- Voxtropolis Sacramento http://alexmcmanus.org/2007/10/15/a-lesson-from-the-underground/comment-page-1/#comment-146240 the city of voices · Church Planter's Forum -- Voxtropolis Sacramento Wed, 31 Oct 2007 02:38:00 +0000 http://alexmcmanus.org/index.php/2007/10/15/a-lesson-from-the-underground/#comment-146240 [...] by some recent time “in the quiet”, I felt God pushing me to make a list. Now, I write many lists, mostly due to my lacking memory and [...] [...] by some recent time “in the quiet”, I felt God pushing me to make a list. Now, I write many lists, mostly due to my lacking memory and [...]

]]> By: Jonathan http://alexmcmanus.org/2007/10/15/a-lesson-from-the-underground/comment-page-1/#comment-146056 Jonathan Mon, 29 Oct 2007 19:46:06 +0000 http://alexmcmanus.org/index.php/2007/10/15/a-lesson-from-the-underground/#comment-146056 Great stuff Alex and contributors: Maybe the question isn't whether it's loud our quiet, but if it has Presence. I think we try to manufacture a sense of God's Presence in both the loud and the quiet. Unfortunately, it can't be done. We can leave the loud or the quiet just as empty as we entered. We all prefer one or the other (and this may change from one day to the next). But what we seek; what our soul longs for is the Presence. What the world needs is the Presence. It can be argued that we create loud spaces to attract others to God's presence; but we do the same thing with the quiet. The Presence is found where God is (loud or quiet). We don't define it or induce it, we enter it. (I think this is what you're talking about Alex...or did I just make a fool of myself...easily done). There is power in the Presence. Power to heal, transform, motivate and move. I think we tend to overthink this. We sing, pray, preach...all of it, loud or quiet, to move toward the Presence. Ocassionally we get there. There, we are purified, inspired and sent. I'd agree completely that this is more likely to happen in the quiet (as you defined it, Alex), but it's certainly not limited by our proximity (physically or emotionally). I'm arguing symantics here, but I've invested too much time in this to delete at this point, so I'll just hang it out there. Please correct my faulty understanding. Presence happens where God is. It's not limited by our structures or lack thereof. It's certainly not defined by our preferences. We must seek HIS Presence on HIS terms (in loud an quiet places), find Him and take others with us. Great stuff Alex and contributors:
Maybe the question isn’t whether it’s loud our quiet, but if it has Presence. I think we try to manufacture a sense of God’s Presence in both the loud and the quiet. Unfortunately, it can’t be done. We can leave the loud or the quiet just as empty as we entered.
We all prefer one or the other (and this may change from one day to the next). But what we seek; what our soul longs for is the Presence. What the world needs is the Presence. It can be argued that we create loud spaces to attract others to God’s presence; but we do the same thing with the quiet.
The Presence is found where God is (loud or quiet). We don’t define it or induce it, we enter it. (I think this is what you’re talking about Alex…or did I just make a fool of myself…easily done). There is power in the Presence. Power to heal, transform, motivate and move.
I think we tend to overthink this. We sing, pray, preach…all of it, loud or quiet, to move toward the Presence. Ocassionally we get there. There, we are purified, inspired and sent.
I’d agree completely that this is more likely to happen in the quiet (as you defined it, Alex), but it’s certainly not limited by our proximity (physically or emotionally).
I’m arguing symantics here, but I’ve invested too much time in this to delete at this point, so I’ll just hang it out there. Please correct my faulty understanding.
Presence happens where God is. It’s not limited by our structures or lack thereof. It’s certainly not defined by our preferences. We must seek HIS Presence on HIS terms (in loud an quiet places), find Him and take others with us.

]]> By: camel crossing » Lessons from the Underground -- Keep the "M" in mind http://alexmcmanus.org/2007/10/15/a-lesson-from-the-underground/comment-page-1/#comment-146004 camel crossing » Lessons from the Underground -- Keep the "M" in mind Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:10:52 +0000 http://alexmcmanus.org/index.php/2007/10/15/a-lesson-from-the-underground/#comment-146004 [...] For the whole article click here. [...] [...] For the whole article click here. [...]

]]> By: Andy http://alexmcmanus.org/2007/10/15/a-lesson-from-the-underground/comment-page-1/#comment-145587 Andy Sat, 27 Oct 2007 07:41:43 +0000 http://alexmcmanus.org/index.php/2007/10/15/a-lesson-from-the-underground/#comment-145587 Barry - I think there are groups like that. They aren't necessarily organized to the degree that we'd call them "church" (or even house church). When I was leading a small group long ago at Mosaic, several people said, "Why don't you just plant a church?" My reactions were (in order): I'm not qualified and I don't want to be a rebel (plus, maybe, It will surely fail). Maybe all those things would have been true given my understanding of church at the time. With my current understanding of church, I wouldn't be so intimidated or controlling about the outcome. I'd see the prospect as an adventure -- people on the move -- rather than an organization (or movement) to create. Now, I probably wouldn't have a fireplace if I were in Los Angeles (or here in Tokyo), so that's another matter. Barry - I think there are groups like that. They aren’t necessarily organized to the degree that we’d call them “church” (or even house church). When I was leading a small group long ago at Mosaic, several people said, “Why don’t you just plant a church?” My reactions were (in order): I’m not qualified and I don’t want to be a rebel (plus, maybe, It will surely fail). Maybe all those things would have been true given my understanding of church at the time. With my current understanding of church, I wouldn’t be so intimidated or controlling about the outcome. I’d see the prospect as an adventure — people on the move — rather than an organization (or movement) to create. Now, I probably wouldn’t have a fireplace if I were in Los Angeles (or here in Tokyo), so that’s another matter.

]]> By: Dani in NC http://alexmcmanus.org/2007/10/15/a-lesson-from-the-underground/comment-page-1/#comment-145383 Dani in NC Fri, 26 Oct 2007 01:48:44 +0000 http://alexmcmanus.org/index.php/2007/10/15/a-lesson-from-the-underground/#comment-145383 Thank you for this inspiring post. I have felt guilty in the past because I prefer the quiet. There are people who think it isn't real worship if it isn't loud. I never thought about the fact that there are Christians all over the world who have fulfilling worship experiences without a lot of preparation and staging. Thank you for this inspiring post. I have felt guilty in the past because I prefer the quiet. There are people who think it isn’t real worship if it isn’t loud. I never thought about the fact that there are Christians all over the world who have fulfilling worship experiences without a lot of preparation and staging.

]]> By: Dropinski http://alexmcmanus.org/2007/10/15/a-lesson-from-the-underground/comment-page-1/#comment-144917 Dropinski Tue, 23 Oct 2007 15:59:18 +0000 http://alexmcmanus.org/index.php/2007/10/15/a-lesson-from-the-underground/#comment-144917 The loud. Ever notice when you're in the next room and the TV is on, how much louder the commercials are than the actual program? When the volume is blaring, I've gradually learned to translate the message as "this is an assault on thought, emotions, and soul." Imagining Jesus as quiet, though, I forget that He could be heard when he was teaching and preaching to multitudes. That multitude thing wasn't very quiet, neither were the miracles, neither was the Resurrection. All this, very loud, if not audibly so. There was also a sense in which Jesus kept some things unwrapped, until it was time for His followers to shout it from the rooftops. The value is hearing what needs to be heard in either the loud or the silence. The loud. Ever notice when you’re in the next room and the TV is on, how much louder the commercials are than the actual program? When the volume is blaring, I’ve gradually learned to translate the message as “this is an assault on thought, emotions, and soul.” Imagining Jesus as quiet, though, I forget that He could be heard when he was teaching and preaching to multitudes. That multitude thing wasn’t very quiet, neither were the miracles, neither was the Resurrection. All this, very loud, if not audibly so. There was also a sense in which Jesus kept some things unwrapped, until it was time for His followers to shout it from the rooftops. The value is hearing what needs to be heard in either the loud or the silence.

]]> By: Barry http://alexmcmanus.org/2007/10/15/a-lesson-from-the-underground/comment-page-1/#comment-144905 Barry Tue, 23 Oct 2007 14:55:22 +0000 http://alexmcmanus.org/index.php/2007/10/15/a-lesson-from-the-underground/#comment-144905 Good stuff here! I would like to go further on a point... Andy, you mentioned that your friend commented that he;d rather be with a small group around a fire. That sounds inviting and intimate. Here's my question: if many of us feel that way, why aren't there more small groups around fires? Maybe there are, I don't know. Is the experience defined by the "loud" simply because some leaders say it is? Are we that much like sheep? I'm not so much challenging the premise but I do wonder why the "loud" can keep propping itself up if it is not attractive. Maybe it's just easier for people to be spectators. maybe the "loud" is not satisfying but we're too lazy to do anything else. I guess, I'm just surprised to not see a massive collapse of the "loud" and a revolution to the "quiet." I suspect that both should be a part of our journey. I'm not just trying to find common ground. If there is a path to follow, I would prefer to do it all the way, with all of my heart. There must be something powerful about the loud, something that only happens there. Maybe, humans, look for a reason to not be open to what is really happening in their hearts wether it be in the loud or quiet and they run to one to hide from the other. Thoughts? Good stuff here! I would like to go further on a point… Andy, you mentioned that your friend commented that he;d rather be with a small group around a fire. That sounds inviting and intimate. Here’s my question: if many of us feel that way, why aren’t there more small groups around fires? Maybe there are, I don’t know. Is the experience defined by the “loud” simply because some leaders say it is? Are we that much like sheep? I’m not so much challenging the premise but I do wonder why the “loud” can keep propping itself up if it is not attractive. Maybe it’s just easier for people to be spectators. maybe the “loud” is not satisfying but we’re too lazy to do anything else. I guess, I’m just surprised to not see a massive collapse of the “loud” and a revolution to the “quiet.” I suspect that both should be a part of our journey. I’m not just trying to find common ground. If there is a path to follow, I would prefer to do it all the way, with all of my heart. There must be something powerful about the loud, something that only happens there. Maybe, humans, look for a reason to not be open to what is really happening in their hearts wether it be in the loud or quiet and they run to one to hide from the other. Thoughts?

]]> By: Andy http://alexmcmanus.org/2007/10/15/a-lesson-from-the-underground/comment-page-1/#comment-144020 Andy Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:49:03 +0000 http://alexmcmanus.org/index.php/2007/10/15/a-lesson-from-the-underground/#comment-144020 Just read this (Scandrette, Soul Graffiti): "Our familiarity with the one called Jesus has bred both cyncism and sentimentality. My sense, however, is that what most of us know about Jesus we know somewhat vicariously through the later development of the religion that we now call Christianity... A subterranean narrative stands in contrast to the dominant histories of Christianity, a quieter story of people who did not hold on to power, but attempted to surrender themselves to the energy and teachings of the master in the way of love." Just read this (Scandrette, Soul Graffiti):

“Our familiarity with the one called Jesus has bred both cyncism and sentimentality. My sense, however, is that what most of us know about Jesus we know somewhat vicariously through the later development of the religion that we now call Christianity…

A subterranean narrative stands in contrast to the dominant histories of Christianity, a quieter story of people who did not hold on to power, but attempted to surrender themselves to the energy and teachings of the master in the way of love.”

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