Comments on: The Kinds of People the 21st Century Needs (3) http://alexmcmanus.org/2008/01/12/the-kinds-of-people-the-21st-century-needs-3/ On a Quest Into the Mystic... Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:07:35 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: The Bible as Human Literature - Alex McManus http://alexmcmanus.org/2008/01/12/the-kinds-of-people-the-21st-century-needs-3/comment-page-1/#comment-220479 The Bible as Human Literature - Alex McManus Tue, 26 May 2009 20:02:54 +0000 http://alexmcmanus.org/index.php/2008/01/12/the-kinds-of-people-the-21st-century-needs-3/#comment-220479 [...] questions are No, No, No, and Yes. (For some of my ideas about these things see my prior articles: Scripture Part 1, Scripture Part 2, Bibliolatry). But today, I’m playfully questioning the language that we [...] [...] questions are No, No, No, and Yes. (For some of my ideas about these things see my prior articles: Scripture Part 1, Scripture Part 2, Bibliolatry). But today, I’m playfully questioning the language that we [...]

]]> By: Links for February 18th | jonathan stegall http://alexmcmanus.org/2008/01/12/the-kinds-of-people-the-21st-century-needs-3/comment-page-1/#comment-215090 Links for February 18th | jonathan stegall Sun, 08 Feb 2009 04:23:21 +0000 http://alexmcmanus.org/index.php/2008/01/12/the-kinds-of-people-the-21st-century-needs-3/#comment-215090 [...] » The Kinds of People the 21st Century Needs (3) into the mystic [...] [...] » The Kinds of People the 21st Century Needs (3) into the mystic [...]

]]> By: Alex http://alexmcmanus.org/2008/01/12/the-kinds-of-people-the-21st-century-needs-3/comment-page-1/#comment-195899 Alex Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:48:59 +0000 http://alexmcmanus.org/index.php/2008/01/12/the-kinds-of-people-the-21st-century-needs-3/#comment-195899 Leeroy, Because I liked the slant. I'm sure the rest of what you said makes perfect sense to you. To me, the basic starting point is to acknowledge that the Bible was written, edited and compiled by men. Leeroy, Because I liked the slant. I’m sure the rest of what you said makes perfect sense to you. To me, the basic starting point is to acknowledge that the Bible was written, edited and compiled by men.

]]> By: Leeroy http://alexmcmanus.org/2008/01/12/the-kinds-of-people-the-21st-century-needs-3/comment-page-1/#comment-195781 Leeroy Tue, 26 Aug 2008 04:01:37 +0000 http://alexmcmanus.org/index.php/2008/01/12/the-kinds-of-people-the-21st-century-needs-3/#comment-195781 How did you happen upon becoming a "Christ Follower" if the very scriptures that you were reading you believed to be false or "flawed or slanted". Do you really believe in the Holy Spirit, and that Jesus Christ was God? I think that it would be easy to assume that if you met God and He gave you His Holy Spirit to dwell within you that He could also help you recollect what He would desire for the world and his future followers to know of Him. I.E. the Bible. The Bible is God breathed and flawless, not to be added to or taken away from. And if you decided to recollect incorrectly or slanted then he might have a small problem with that. He is the God of the universe right? I am sure he could make sure you had a good memory of meeting him. How did you happen upon becoming a “Christ Follower” if the very scriptures that you were reading you believed to be false or “flawed or slanted”. Do you really believe in the Holy Spirit, and that Jesus Christ was God? I think that it would be easy to assume that if you met God and He gave you His Holy Spirit to dwell within you that He could also help you recollect what He would desire for the world and his future followers to know of Him. I.E. the Bible. The Bible is God breathed and flawless, not to be added to or taken away from. And if you decided to recollect incorrectly or slanted then he might have a small problem with that. He is the God of the universe right? I am sure he could make sure you had a good memory of meeting him.

]]> By: S.Ravi C. http://alexmcmanus.org/2008/01/12/the-kinds-of-people-the-21st-century-needs-3/comment-page-1/#comment-165915 S.Ravi C. Thu, 21 Feb 2008 03:26:03 +0000 http://alexmcmanus.org/index.php/2008/01/12/the-kinds-of-people-the-21st-century-needs-3/#comment-165915 Dear Sir By chance my creator lead me to your site. The postings and replies are really worthy of a scientific spiritual practice. As an ofspring of Advaitha philosophy, I find this blog a good place for any soul spirit seeker. Keep it up. Dear Sir
By chance my creator lead me to your site. The postings and replies are really worthy of a scientific spiritual practice. As an ofspring of Advaitha philosophy, I find this blog a good place for any soul spirit seeker. Keep it up.

]]> By: jonathan stegall » Blog Archive » links for 2008-02-18 http://alexmcmanus.org/2008/01/12/the-kinds-of-people-the-21st-century-needs-3/comment-page-1/#comment-165352 jonathan stegall » Blog Archive » links for 2008-02-18 Mon, 18 Feb 2008 23:35:57 +0000 http://alexmcmanus.org/index.php/2008/01/12/the-kinds-of-people-the-21st-century-needs-3/#comment-165352 [...] » The Kinds of People the 21st Century Needs (3) into the mystic (tags: theology bible) [...] [...] » The Kinds of People the 21st Century Needs (3) into the mystic (tags: theology bible) [...]

]]> By: geoffreybaines http://alexmcmanus.org/2008/01/12/the-kinds-of-people-the-21st-century-needs-3/comment-page-1/#comment-159674 geoffreybaines Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:46:34 +0000 http://alexmcmanus.org/index.php/2008/01/12/the-kinds-of-people-the-21st-century-needs-3/#comment-159674 Hi Alex, Thanks for this. Very timely. You appreciate that the situation I am in brings me in to contact with people who are in very different places to one another theologically but trying to figure out how they can move forward together. I had never come across people who had checked out the statements of faith for churches and organisations before, but I have here. Things that have been picked on have included the "infallibility" of scripture - a phrase not to be found in any scripture. This is one of the things being discussed by a group that has to offer a lead to many churches in its denomination on evangelism. Often different positions only have time to fire off soundbites at each other. They need the long, rich, exploring conversation that you are opening up. So much of my denominations experience of "church" mitigates against this - this group I mention has a deadline to hit with an expectation of what it can deliver. I have suggested that the best the group can serve the churches is a modelling of this conversation. What might happen if the Holy Spirit gets involved in these conversations? I can only think that we will become your "effected" people. Hi Alex,

Thanks for this. Very timely. You appreciate that the situation I am in brings me in to contact with people who are in very different places to one another theologically but trying to figure out how they can move forward together. I had never come across people who had checked out the statements of faith for churches and organisations before, but I have here. Things that have been picked on have included the “infallibility” of scripture - a phrase not to be found in any scripture.

This is one of the things being discussed by a group that has to offer a lead to many churches in its denomination on evangelism. Often different positions only have time to fire off soundbites at each other. They need the long, rich, exploring conversation that you are opening up.

So much of my denominations experience of “church” mitigates against this - this group I mention has a deadline to hit with an expectation of what it can deliver. I have suggested that the best the group can serve the churches is a modelling of this conversation. What might happen if the Holy Spirit gets involved in these conversations? I can only think that we will become your “effected” people.

]]> By: Alex http://alexmcmanus.org/2008/01/12/the-kinds-of-people-the-21st-century-needs-3/comment-page-1/#comment-158423 Alex Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:33:08 +0000 http://alexmcmanus.org/index.php/2008/01/12/the-kinds-of-people-the-21st-century-needs-3/#comment-158423 Nic, always good to hear from you. You are one of the most thoughtful of my conversation partners. I like your analogy of trying to hear a broadband satellite "broadcast" on a transistor radio. But even if the scriptures are a transistor, the noises are a clue to the meaning of everything. Nic, always good to hear from you. You are one of the most thoughtful of my conversation partners. I like your analogy of trying to hear a broadband satellite “broadcast” on a transistor radio. But even if the scriptures are a transistor, the noises are a clue to the meaning of everything.

]]> By: Nic Nelson http://alexmcmanus.org/2008/01/12/the-kinds-of-people-the-21st-century-needs-3/comment-page-1/#comment-158400 Nic Nelson Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:27:24 +0000 http://alexmcmanus.org/index.php/2008/01/12/the-kinds-of-people-the-21st-century-needs-3/#comment-158400 Hey Alex, you and I were writing at the same time! I agree that "how human beings know things has to submit (at least) to the study of what human beings are." That sums up what I'm getting at: humans who are in some sense "dead in their sins" and those who are "alive in Christ" clearly perceive the world and form knowledge in different ways. So... how do we help folks acquire the sixth sense, the new dish, the life that brings an ability to know in a new way? Hey Alex, you and I were writing at the same time! I agree that “how human beings know things has to submit (at least) to the study of what human beings are.” That sums up what I’m getting at: humans who are in some sense “dead in their sins” and those who are “alive in Christ” clearly perceive the world and form knowledge in different ways.

So… how do we help folks acquire the sixth sense, the new dish, the life that brings an ability to know in a new way?

]]> By: Nic Nelson http://alexmcmanus.org/2008/01/12/the-kinds-of-people-the-21st-century-needs-3/comment-page-1/#comment-158398 Nic Nelson Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:16:23 +0000 http://alexmcmanus.org/index.php/2008/01/12/the-kinds-of-people-the-21st-century-needs-3/#comment-158398 Interesting that I spent last semester tackling the question of Inspiration, and here it is again... I won't do you the indignity of sticking a label on your bibliology, Alex, but I will say that a) you raise excellent points, but I stand in a slightly different place, and b) having really delved into the deeper issues and questions of inspiration in general and the scriptures & canon in particular, these are DEEP waters, and I respect your stance very much. In the points where you and I differ, you may well be proved right in the end! ;-) But to the important point: hearing the Voice behind the voices. A mentor of mine was explaining various issues in epistemology. He summed up as "sense + thought = knowledge", in other words, "tell me something you know that isn't a combination of perception and logic." Everything else-- whether data we can't understand, or thinking that is not rooted in empirical observation (i.e. "imagination")-- simply isn't "knowledge". A hunch or guess or wish, maybe, but we don't KNOW it. So how do we KNOW Christ? His conclusion: the Holy Spirit gives us a new perception, a sort of sixth sense. Without this sixth sense the scriptures are empty, the witness of christfollowers is a meaningless curiosity, the world echoes with infinite emptiness except for the purpose a person imposes on it by sheer force of will. (cf. http://escapepod.org/2007/12/25/ep138-in-the-late-december/ ) It is as if humanity at large heard truth through transistor radios, and the Holy Spirit offers a broadband satellite linkup. With this new band of perception, suddenly (according to our old friends who wrote the hebrew and christian scriptures!) "the word of God is living and active", and "When the king heard the words of the Law, he tore his robes", the witness of a single follower of Jesus transforms a region. Suddenly we can hear "the heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech" and at last we can hear it. I guess the key to this third turning (to the scriptures), if it is not to dead-end in legalism or bibliolatry, is getting a new dish. Interesting that I spent last semester tackling the question of Inspiration, and here it is again… I won’t do you the indignity of sticking a label on your bibliology, Alex, but I will say that
a) you raise excellent points, but I stand in a slightly different place, and
b) having really delved into the deeper issues and questions of inspiration in general and the scriptures & canon in particular, these are DEEP waters, and I respect your stance very much. In the points where you and I differ, you may well be proved right in the end! ;-)

But to the important point: hearing the Voice behind the voices.

A mentor of mine was explaining various issues in epistemology. He summed up as “sense + thought = knowledge”, in other words, “tell me something you know that isn’t a combination of perception and logic.” Everything else– whether data we can’t understand, or thinking that is not rooted in empirical observation (i.e. “imagination”)– simply isn’t “knowledge”. A hunch or guess or wish, maybe, but we don’t KNOW it.

So how do we KNOW Christ?

His conclusion: the Holy Spirit gives us a new perception, a sort of sixth sense. Without this sixth sense the scriptures are empty, the witness of christfollowers is a meaningless curiosity, the world echoes with infinite emptiness except for the purpose a person imposes on it by sheer force of will. (cf. http://escapepod.org/2007/12/25/ep138-in-the-late-december/ ) It is as if humanity at large heard truth through transistor radios, and the Holy Spirit offers a broadband satellite linkup.

With this new band of perception, suddenly (according to our old friends who wrote the hebrew and christian scriptures!) “the word of God is living and active”, and “When the king heard the words of the Law, he tore his robes”, the witness of a single follower of Jesus transforms a region. Suddenly we can hear “the heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech” and at last we can hear it.

I guess the key to this third turning (to the scriptures), if it is not to dead-end in legalism or bibliolatry, is getting a new dish.

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