Yes, you can quote scripture here.
We like it.

Ok, you asked, “why am I minimizing the Bible?”
I want to (1) emphasize my thinking about the Bible and also to (2) point out when people confuse their own thinking with the Bible.
I do this because trying to understand God is something I consider very important.

If I might make my point with the scripture you used. When you quote Romans 10, you seem to think that this says, that we hear the gospel via the Bible. Is that your thinking about this verse or is it what the verse is saying? I think Paul’s saying that people hear the gospel through the ones who tell it. (versus through the Bible as you suggest). I don’t think Paul proclaimed the gospel as he traveled from town to town by turning to scripture passages. He proclaimed it by telling about the resurrection of Jesus. Of course, this doesn’t exclude the use of scripture or any other form of supporting evidence.

You also quote Romans 1.16-32. It makes my point exactly. According to the Bible, the creation gives us a witness that leaves us without excuse and that quite APART from the Bible itself.

I may be wrong, but it seems that you seem to think that the creation gives this witness because the Bible says so. The creation doesn’t give a witness because the Bible says so. The Bible says so because quite apart from it, the creation gives a witness that leaves us without excuse. Now I depart from the Bible to my thinking– I think this means that we have sufficient intuitive, psychic, genetic, or rational powers to be made responsible for what creation tells us.

You’re right. The Bible is pesky. That’s why I tend to like it.
No need for forgiveness. This is a touchy one and I get that. Thanks for your thoughts.

Sometimes, the way most Christians relate to the Bible one of two negative things happen. First, we disengage our thinking and accept “because” as an answer. Or, second, we do what we believe whether it is healthy or not and put the responsibility on God. I think following Christ requires that we engage Him and the scriptures with our thinking and accept our responsibility for the meanings we extract.

You’re comments are always welcomed.

I appreciate your response. I know that it is sometimes difficult to express our feelings or point of views in writing instead of face to face. I hope that I did not sound like I am not open to change in church culture. Church culture is many times the problem and needs changing! That is why I enjoy the church I attend. We focus on being the church 24/7. We focus on building relationships in the marketplace and community. I just feel that many times we avoid issues that the bible clearly identifies as right or wrong, in fear that it will not be accepted by all. The problem with much of church culture is they feel that protesting and isolating themselves is the answer to these issues against the “secular” world. My pastor made a good point that we must not focus more on legislating morality than encouraging it through living sent in our daily lives by loving others and loving God. Thank you for your response!

I tend to view the scriptures as the human part of the God - human interaction. About the word “adequate”…this word means “to make equal” or “equal to the task”. “Sufficient” is a synonym.

I think the Bible is equal to the task the church has for it…i.e. to tell the story of how we became the community we are, and point the world to the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Since I came to know about Jesus Christ through the telling (verbally and via reading the Bible) of that same story, followed by an experience of encountering Christ in the context of that story, I believe that this story has a way of opening people’s eyes so that they can see God at work rescuing the universe through Jesus.

Shawn, my experience seems a bit different than yours. Life made sense to me. The Bible and the spirit are what made my life crazy. I was fine until Jesus messed everything up.

You ask, “At what point do we stop accepting every idea thrown to us and take a stand for what is Gods viewpoint on issues?”

I will never stop accepting any idea thrown at me that helps me lead the world to Christ. Never. I will Always stand on what I believe God is doing in the world.

You say, My fear is that we are letting secular culture influence the way we view God.

Ok, I hear you. I say let the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ and our conversions to God through Christ influence our view of God. Never fear again.

Thanks. I hope that helps clear some things up, even if we don’t agree.

—– I agree about the wise and foolish builders en toto. My point, as you noted, is that “saying” or even “believing” that one is led by the spirit does not mean that one is more likely to be in touch with God and God’s ways.

—– My understanding is that God is always involved in the process. You’re right, I tend to use God rather than spirit. I must be quick to say, however, that this isn’t because I’m trying to avoid sounding like a charismatic. I love my pentecostal tending brothers, and, even though I am not a charismatic, my mission and ministry experience are sprinkled with the miraculous activities of God. Nor am I trying hard not to sound like an evangelical. I don’t aspire to be an evangelical. Neither am I an undercover evangelical. I am an atheist surprised by his own conversion to God through Christ. I am a secularist who aspires to cling to Christ because Christ rescued me. I am a humanist who thinks the Bible is the most important literature on earth.

Steve, It’s no wonder you find yourself disagreeing with me. With the self-identity I have, I find myself disagreeing with myself plenty.

Finally, I totally agree with what you’ve said about reason. Often, we can seek to avoid responsibility for our part in the human divine relationship by not acknowledging that we engage God and the scripture with all our heart, soul, strength and mind.

It appears that we might be trying to say some of the same things, but we are saying them in really different ways.
It appears that you view me as saying that you can discover the truth only by a “thus sayeth the Lord” kind of revelation. I am not saying that at all. Of course you have to think and reason with your mind. My point is that the process has to start with asking God for guidance through the Holy Spirit and then listen for His heart, study the Bible, and finally reason using what information God has given you in the process to come to a conclusion. Will that sometimes lead to mistakes? You bet! Each mistake is a learning experience. With practice the mistakes will become less and less frequent as we learn the difference between what God’s voice sounds like and our own thinking.
On the other hand I was thinking that you are trying hard to not sound like an evangelical, or even worse a charismatic. Your language to me sounded like you were trying to say that the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the process for you. I am kind of stepping back here and trying to see if I am missing something. When you mention intuitively understanding, I suspect that you let the Holy Spirit get involved in that process. Alex am I getting warm?

One last thing you said

“However, you used it to mean that one’s judgment is more reliable and accurate if they say they are led by the spirit. This is false.”

It is not what people say that matters, but what they do. I don’t just believe, but I know that when God is truly leading a person, his judgment is more sound. I think that is part of what Jesus was talking about when He discussed the wise and foolish builders. I have known many people over the years who speak christianese really well, however there was no evidence of Christ in their lives what so ever. That is not the kind of Christianity that I practice or advocate.

What faculty did you use to create this argument? What faculty did you use to ask yourself, Hmm, what did Jesus say?
The answer to these questions is not about being filled by the spirit or not. It’s about being honest with yourself.

Also,

“One more thing just because some people who claim to be led by the Spirit get it wrong, doesn’t mean that no one get’s it right.”

My point exactly. People get things right whether they say they are led by the spirit or not. Saying one is led by the spirit does NOT mean the person is right (or is even in fact keeping in step with the spirit). Of course, it doesn’t mean they’re wrong.
However, you used it to mean that one’s judgment is more reliable and accurate if they say they are led by the spirit. This is false.

Last,
“I wonder Alex, have you ever been filled with the Holy Spirit?”

Jesus is risen.

Thanks for the input. Truly welcomed.