Search for the Mystic- A Reversal of Kingdom Capital (1.2)
Welcome back.
What would happen if …
the millions and millions of dollars that are given each year to churches was suddenly released back into the hands of believers with the commission to directly make someone’s life better?
Think of it. Hundreds of millions of dollars that would no longer be used to maintain the property of stagnant churches but instead placed again in the hands of the regular people who believed enough to give it in the first place?
Their instructions? Make the world a better, happier place. Fly salmon in from Alaska and throw a party for someone that has yet to hear of Christ. Pay someone’s water bill. Give someone a used car. Take someone out to dinner. Why? For no other reason than that you love them.
These questions are a sort of summary of the story told below. Feel free to scroll all the way down and comment on these questions without reading what follows. I warn you. Scroll quickly past the following story and don’t read it unless you have to.
What do you think?
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In Search of the Mystic (1.2)
The images of the men in Speedos with hairy backs and the naked, sun-bathing women on the shores of the Mediterranean now behind me, my thinking turned sharply towards my search for The Mystic. I boarded the train for the short trip to central Barcelona and tried to organize in my mind that which I had come to know of this enigmatic movement thus far.
I know what you’re thinking. How? How and when did I come to know what I know of The Mystic and who told me? All I can say is that they always seemed to know where I would be. My encounters with these mystic warriors would always be brief and somewhat shrouded. Always. I’ve come to suspect that this was for my protection and not theirs.
Like the young woman with perfect hands that sat across from me on the train. She was reading when I found my seat and left suddenly at the next stop. But not before telling me out of the blue to keep searching because the fate of the universe depended on it. “Out of the blue” has a new meaning to me now.
train tracks leading to Barcelona
The future, I am told, will be different than we imagine. More wonderful than we could imagine, they say, and far more terrifying. Future Orientation is one of my Strengths and I love to think about what awaits us. But when these mystics speak of the future it is as if they have already lived it.
In the early part of the 21st century, they say, the predominant forms of the Christ following movement, the Mega church and the house church, would begin to give way to new expressions, new alignments.
New forms would emerge, one of them called The Mystic. This clan was characterized by a series of paradoxes
- Larger than a mega church and smaller then a house church
- Everywhere and nowhere
- Radically decentralized and radically unified
- Local and global
- Electronic and biological
- All the clergy became laity and all the laity became priests, poets and eventually, mystic warriors.
One Story of the Genesis of The Mystic
The “genesis” of The Mystic was unremarkable, I am told. So much so that no one saw it coming. Nevertheless, several streams of origin were discernible, the most important of which is the evolution of the human species from Homo Sapiens to Homo Electronicus. But another of the earliest streams, and the one with which we’ll begin, is when the flow of Kingdom capital reversed itself.
The de-evolution of a species
One of the more circulated “genesis” stories is of a young man living at the end of the 20th century who started a Bible study. His unreached friends came and converted to faith in Christ. The deacons of his church encouraged him to bring his friends to church so they could grow.
The young man knew if he took them to church they would be lost to the Christ following movement. He spoke with the leaders of the church and explained the situation but they were unwilling to see his point of view. He had grown up in that church, gave money there every payday, and loved it in every way, but he couldn’t take his friends there. He wasn’t sure what to do.
As an act of commitment to the gains he had made among his unchurched friends, he sent his offering to a mentor from college whose blog he read every day. Inside the envelope he put a note indicating his predicament and stating that he wanted to reach his friends and didn’t want to do it alone.
Shortly thereafter, he received an email from his mentor.
I’m not a church, his mentor wrote. I have no building to build. No staff to pay.
Therefore, I accept your giving as your commitment to live a life focused on those who do not yet know. You are the church. You’ll receive in the mail a check for the same amount as your tithe minus 1%. You are commissioned to use all of it in any way that directly serves those you are seeking to reach.
[As a side note, I met a young man with a similar story in Central Florida early this year. Had I known then of The Mystic I would have invited him to join me in my search.]
Within a couple of years, many others followed. They reached critical mass silently through the invisible world of the blogosphere. As they grew they each began to give to the mentor, in the pattern of the first young man, 1% of their income as a commitment that all of their resources would be used to serve and reach the unreached. As part of their commitment, they set aside the remaining 9% to throw parties, or feed the poor, or pay someone’s water bill, or do any thing they wanted that would directly touch the lives of others.
Mystic Warriors, as they would come to be known, would become known as the most generous people on earth among those they touched.
Balconies in Barcelona
Without intending it or even knowing it, they created a radical and revolutionary realignment of the economics of the Kingdom. Thousands and tens of thousands of Mystic Warriors and the hundreds of millions of dollars of Kingdom capital that would have otherwise become locked in the budgets of churches that didn’t work were all of a sudden unleashed to directly touch somebody’s life. The revolution had begun.
With the passing of time, this community began to take on a shape and form of it’s own unlike anything that had manifested on earth before. [For those of you who think this is just a fiction, think again. The signs of the revolution to come are all around us. Check out Dean Sharp’s September 8 Post. It will scare you.]
I know what you’re thinking. Where do they send the 1%? That’s what everyone asks me. As soon as I figure that out, I’ll let you know. For right now, my offer still stands: I’ll travel any distance to meet for even one minute with any one of these mystic warriors. My quest? To find the guide who has shown others the way into the mystic.
What do you think?
into the mystic…
Alex McManus
Comment by Peter Amico
# September 17, 2005,
Alex,
Hey I love the idea. In fact I was thinking a couple of weeks ago about missionaries raising support. What if instead of raising support for themselves, they raised support so they could give to the people around them and make the community they are trying to reach a better place. They could be tentmakers in the meantime to provide for themselves, but wouldnt that change the way we raise support?
Also… what if pastors were required to have a 20 hour part time job as a waiter, dishwasher, etc… to keep them focused on people who dont know God? and then that income could be used purely for those people that you met through that venue?
Comment by Sam Radford
# September 17, 2005,
Exciting thoughts Alex. I’ve long grown tired of looking at church budgets and seeing 90% of the money spent on staffing and maintenance. I would love to see that switch to 10% and the rest touching real peoples lives as an expression of love (in whatever shape that takes).
I also think that when people see money just going to staffing and maintenance that they give much less…it doesn’t inspire generosity. (My parents were telling me last week that they have started giving money elsewhere as they feel there just as got way too many paid staff).
Challenging stuff…would love to get a feel for how this could evolve…
Comment by Agent B
# September 17, 2005,
Yes - NOT funding facilities and church programs…I’m all for that.
I recommend Morris Ruddick’s “The Joseph/Daniel Calling” - an insight on ways to fund such a wise venture.
Comment by Alex
# September 17, 2005,
Peter,
Good to hear from you and thanks for your contribution.
Think about this…doesn’t the idea that pastors could be “required” to do something assume that pastors are employees whose lives can altered by changing their job description?
The reversal of Kingdom capital radically undermines the notion that pastors can be employees.
In fact, not only is Kingdom capital returned to the missionaries, the ministry is returned to us…all of us. And yes, this changes everything about raising funds.
Hope all goes well in China. Keep the ideas coming. Thanks.
Comment by Alex
# September 17, 2005,
Sam, Thousands and perhaps millions of Christ following people feel as your parents do. Your words resonate with Dean’s recent post.
Comment by Sam Radford
# September 17, 2005,
Just read Dean’s post…fantastic thoughts. Its a big thing for me to be thinking about right now as we work towards church planting next April. I have always valued low maintenance when it comes to church and that has to carry over to finance as well. I shall be defintely giving this some serious thought and prayer. Be interested to hear of any more examples of people actually already doing this.
Comment by El Bob Baker
# September 17, 2005,
I like your idea Alex. I don’t think that it’s a new idea from the mystic warriors though. The early church shared all their posesions (sp?) and by doing so used all their resources for ministry and touching people’s lives. Coincidence, I think not. Just my two cents
Peace
El Bob
Comment by Sally Schilling
# September 17, 2005,
Nice balconies in Barcelona.. :)
Comment by Deana Watson
# September 17, 2005,
“I warn you. Scroll quickly past the following story and don’t read it unless you have to.”
Of course I have to read this…today my soul is longing to be with more mystic warriors. Why does it seem they are all “out there”?
Why can’t there be some right here…where I am…to join with me and Steve to do something incredible where we are?
I am being challenged this week to really search out our place…and this post has just stirred up more feelings of not knowing where that place or purpose is.
Maybe I should put an ad out in Craigslist…SEARCHING FOR MYSTIC WARRIORS IN DENVER AREA…THOSE WHO GO TO SLEEP ALREADY DREAMING…THOSE SEARCHING FOR A PLACE TO BELONG…THOSE WHO STEP OUT INTO THEIR WORLD EACH DAY LOOKING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE…THOSE WHO MUST…
hmmm…
Comment by Peter Amico
# September 17, 2005,
Speaking of the reversal of kingdom capital.. how about this thought? The kingdom of man says that power is exclusive. The goal of power is comfort, security, and wealth. However, power in the kingdom of God is inclusive. The gospel has a radical powerlessness to it. Unfortunately, the church looks like the kingdom of man. We want the palace and not the manger. The church is barely ever on the side of the victim because we understand power as the kindgom of man understands it. Power is bigger churches, bigger budgets, higher salaries, and more prestige.
But, maybe we should learn a lesson from MLK. Essentially the letters that his friends wrote in the papers said “When you want to take power from the powerful you get what you deserve (jail).” His response is when he says I am here because injustice is here. In his powerlessness he says this is where we will overcome and be powerful. In the position of powerlessness he leads the civil rights movement. Where was the church? On the side of the powerful.
Power is radically inclusive and in the eyes of the kingdom of man it seems powerless. Maybe that is why we are lead by the lamb? And.. maybe that is why we are scared to release money into the hands of the people? 90-10 is sounding like a reversal of kingdom capital to me
Comment by Alex
# September 18, 2005,
Bob,
It’s hard to know if these mystics are from the ancient past or in the deep future. But you’re right, as I read the ancients texts, I see mystic themes arising everywhere.
Comment by Cathy
# September 18, 2005,
Oh my goodness we are not alone, other aliens have landed who think Kingdom. I loved this post, I am so happy!
Comment by Heidi Helm
# September 19, 2005,
I have struggled with the idea of paid clergy since becoming a follower in the early 90s. It seems like a horrendous conflict of interests.
It makes maintainance of the organization the pastor’s misison, rather than leading the organization to exist for the mission.
I love what I’m reading in emergent conversations. It gives me hope for the church.
Comment by Peter
# September 19, 2005,
Hmm. Some interesting ideas but I’ve actually been thinking about the opposite. Sorta.
If we don’t pay clergy, how will they have the means to survive? I think there’s value in having full-time pastors. There are people who feel called to study the Word of God; to deliver that knowledge to masses of people; to meet with people daily to counsel them on spiritual matters–things that most of us with corporate/industry jobs can’t do as well because after a full day of work, we just don’t have the time and energy for it. I think there’s value in having a system for these people, aka pastors, to be financially supported.
Also, I can see how churches can get obsessive about their buildings but again, I think there’s a lot of value in having a central location for church fellowship (aka a church building).
Alex, with regards to your original comment, I would love to know where these millions and millions of dollars are because our little church plant would love to get a hold of some of that to give our pastors a more reasonable salary. :) In my church experience, the problem has always been that people haven’t been tithing, therefore the church has always been strapped for cash, rather than us having an abundance of money. I’ve always been under the assumption that the church doesn’t have enough money; if the church did have everyone tithing, it could do some pretty amazing things.
In any case, if you’re interested, here are some related thoughts on the roles of clergy and laity from a few days ago:
http://peterskim.org/blog/?p=128
Comment by niza
# September 19, 2005,
sally - thank you. the balconies’ pics were taken by me.
alex - stop stealing all my photos…haha
Comment by Alex
# September 19, 2005,
Peter,
Good to hear from you.
Take the average operating budget of the tens of thousands of small, medium and large churches across the country and you’ll get millions and millions and millions.
Also, you wrote: “if the church did have everyone tithing, it could do some pretty amazing things.”
Really? Is it really the lack of cash that keeps churches from doing pretty amazing things?
That’s not what I get from Acts 3.6. There’s lots of reasons why your assumptions here will lead us to the wrong places. I’ll get to some of these as we go along.
Here’s another question for you:
Read Acts and notice that as Luke describes Paul’s activity as happening on the Sabbath. What did Paul do the other 6 days?
The fastest growing religious movements today are the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses, according to a conversation I had recently with my friend Bill Clark. The rapid growth of Mormonism rivals the rapid growth of the Christ movement of the first century.
What did they have in common? Volunteer leadership drives the modern day mormon expansion and volunteer leaders drove the first century Christ following movement.
I agree with you about finacially supporting leaders within the movement but not for the same reasons as you. I’ll get to my reasons as the story of The Mystic continue, but the support of leaders within the movement has to submit to the way that movement explodes which is through the volunteer, spontaneous, missional lives and activity of business people, teachers, homemakers, etc.
As always, thanks for your contribution.
Comment by Peter
# September 19, 2005,
Alex, thanks for your quick and thoughtful response.
Yeah, I don’t mean to imply that paid clergy are the only ones that do ministry and volunteers just sit in the pews and listen. I just wonder if we tie up too much of the time and energy of volunteers to do “church stuff” (e.g. participate in worship band, make bulletins and signs, create video presentations, etc.) in exchange for them being able to do relational ministry with friends from work, school, etc. I agree that volunteer participation is essential to the growth of the church, but I wonder if we should empower them to do more relational ministry while hiring full time paid staff to do “church stuff” (as I defined it above).
My ideas of what to do with more money is related to my perception of the role of societal caregiver becoming more and more absent from the church while becoming stronger in the State. Instead of the materially and spiritually poor going to the Welfare State for assistance and provision, I wish they could find that from the Church.
But maybe we do actually have the money to do that but would rather spend it on huge church buildings and renovations than for caring for those who need Jesus.
Comment by Alex
# September 19, 2005,
Peter,
Yes, I think we can become too focused on the “program” of a weekly event. BUT I would never want to hire pastors to do church stuff. In fact, the apostle Peter resisted being called upon to do anything other than prayer and proclamation of the gospel (Acts 6).
I don’t see the church [organization] as a societal caregiver as I do a society [organism] of passionate lovers of humanity and announcers of the kingdom.
Peter, what would the church look like [and act like] if it weren’t a 501c3 non profit org? That’s a good question to stretch the imagination regarding the question: what is the essence of the church?
[I’m not implying by this question that churches shouldn’t become 501c3s.]
Comment by Marty Schmidt
# September 19, 2005,
Thought I would share what it looks like from where I am at. On a couple of occasions we felt led as a church to do a reverse offering. What we took in one week was given out the following week to the congregation to disburse in a way that would advance the kingdom. The stories of lives changed by that have been amazing.
It seems to me that the older the church the more they have a handle on this. It has been my observation that the older churches have a higher percentage for money that goes back out than those that are newer. Have you had the same experience?
One side note - Those Sundays prior brought in double the normal offering - the congregation was unware that this was coming - causing a larger step in faith in redistributing all of it.
Comment by Larry
# September 19, 2005,
What is a church? Many people, many answers. Any group of people who come together to support each other in following Jesus. In all that that implies.
The modern church learned management from the world around it, which isn’t the best model. Some creative people have better ideas, but some will always want a building and formality. Some people even like the ritual of the Catholic church, and they see Jesus in there.
Perhaps we can have a church in an electronic space. There are games for killing things, and games for exploring. Why not have a game-space for followers of Jesus. I’ve seen real love grow in such spaces, with communication stronger than I’ve seen in churches.
I’m all for experiments. The one lead-pipe certainty right now is that the current system doesn’t work.
Comment by Peter
# September 19, 2005,
Hmm. I don’t believe the identity of the Church as an organism is mutually exclusive from the Church as an organization. I agree with you that the Church is an organism but I think it doesn’t reach its greatest potential effectiveness unless it as also an organization.
So do you think clergy and laity have equal responsibility for doing “church stuff”? If so, what distinguishes clergy and laity (other than the fact that one is paid by the church and the other isn’t)?
Comment by Alex
# September 19, 2005,
Peter, why do you think that the church doesn’t reach it’s greatest potential effectiveness unless it is also an organization?
Comment by Alex
# September 19, 2005,
Larry,
if you like the electronic aspects …you’ll love The Mystic.
Comment by Alex
# September 19, 2005,
Good story, Marty. Thanks for sharing it.
Comment by Mike
# September 19, 2005,
I wonder if God “distinguishes clergy and laity” at all? (Actually, I don’t think He does.)
There are too many pastors and buildings sucking the finances of the body of Christ. But, there are also too many members in too many congregations that hold too tightly to their dollars as well.
I suppose I should include a disclaimer: I am a missionary to the emerging culture who is paid by a local congregation. They pay me a salary in order that I may be able to concentrate on reaching an unreached culture in their midst and equipping them to do the same. I am a youth pastor.
Comment by Peter Kim
# September 19, 2005,
I majored in Management in college. I’ve been in the corporate world for five years. Process, structure, and order are good things. They are tools to help people accomplish tasks and meet goals. Yes, when abused, they can be restrictive and limiting. But when there’s a lack of respect for structure and process, you get anarchy and chaos (and no, beauty does not arise from chaos; in most cases, chaos leads to hell). :)
An organization needs to exist in order to establish process, structure and order. They will not organically arise out of chaos or nothingness. I think when churches leverage organizational tools, they can be a lot more productive than churches that don’t.
Organizations have power. There are many problems that have arisen from the Catholic Church as an organization but there are also benefits of it being a large organization. The size of their entity gives them political power that no protestant denomination even comes close to. E.g. When the Pope speaks on various issues, the whole world listens.
Comment by Alex
# September 19, 2005,
Peter,
Is that what you see in the NT?
Did the power of the NT Christ following movement in your view come from it’s organization?
Just a curioisity, Why (for you) must an organization exist in order for there to be process, structure and order? Are the only two options you see (either) an organization that establishes, process, etc (or) chaos and nothingness out of which emerges hell? Is there nothing else?
Good thoughts. Thanks for your contribution.
Comment by Jason
# September 19, 2005,
There was a story on Dateline about 3 years ago about a Presbyterian minister that called 100 people up on stage and gave each one of them $100.
He told them, “I want you to look at this money as if GOD just handed you this money and told you to use it wisely for Him.” The minister went on that day to preach on the Parable of the Talents. Dateline interviewed a lot of the congregants that recieved money. Most of them said it was more stress than they had felt in years, the pressure of knowing they were holding God’s money and were responsible for spending it wisely.
Long story short, when Dateline ran the story, that $10,000. handed out that one Sunday morning; had turned into (my memory is not exact) but from what my wife and I remember, millions (2-4) of dollars in business and non-profit organizations to serve the community. Houses for battered wives, orphanages, hair salons, all kind of things ran by followers that felt the burden of being responsible for God’s money.
My point. What if that was 70% of everything churches brought in given back to the followers to be responsible for. Imagine what could be.
2nd point how do we get followers to understand their money is always money God has given them anyway? We are responsible for what we have been given.
Just thought I would share. Thanks
(By the way Alex, I don’t know if you remember me but I’m the guy you met last year in Orlando at Origins and ended up e-mailing you a letter about repentance) I was the guy who had been a Christian for “only” eight years. See ya.
Comment by stephen
# September 19, 2005,
As a church planter who is fully supported (in multiple ways but financial seems to be the biggest blessing right now as I raise 3 kids) by the generousity of our people I read these posts and really wonder if taking away the salaries of our pastor leaders will leave the Church better off than we are right now. I think the problem isn’t necessarily with the fact that I, or other pastor leaders, get paid. The problem I see here in the South is that so many of our preachers set themselves apart from the people they are trying to reach/serve/lead. When a pastor lives in a gated community (15 miles away from the people he is leading), drives a $60,000 car, wears $100 shirts and send his kid’s to private schools at $4000 a semester no wonder people seem to hold on more tightly to their money. (I can’t say that I would blame them for not giving…BUT I am reminded that no matter what others do with my money I give first and only to God therefore I give, out of obedience). Maybe our pastors should set the pace in both modest living and generous giving. I for one would hate to see our income dissolve because I know there is no way I could lead a church of 100 plus each week IF I had to work another full time job. Or if I did lead the church I can promise you my marriage and family would suffer. My financial compensation allows me to serve thousands of people around me for the Kingdom as well as influence my kids and love my wife. I am glad that I have a group of people who trust me with this salary and I want to make sure that I don’t betray that trust.
(Alex posts like these could take away my kids college funds…hahaha. Maybe I need to take you off my blog as a mentor!) Keep up the great work of making all of us THINK through this Kingdom building thing.
Comment by Alex
# September 19, 2005,
Stephen,
I’m 100% behind you bro. We need to support guys like you that are doing it.
Comment by Alex
# September 19, 2005,
Jason, Yes I remember you very well and have thought of you on several occasions. Thanks for the comment.
Comment by Sam Radford
# September 20, 2005,
I think its probably fair to say that there isn’t one right way that is right for everyone when it comes to “staffing”. At the same time I think we all need to make sure our focus is always the kingdom. “What is the best way to use this money that will most benefit the work of the kingdom?” is probably the question we need to be consistently asking ourselves.
I definitely don’t like the way that so many churches end up paying pastors to do the work of ministry though. As I see it the pastors (and apostles, prophets, evangelists and teachers) are there to equip the body of Christ to do the work of ministry. Pastors are there to equip the church to be pastoral, apostles to equip the church to be apostolic etc. And, I think that if pastors were focused on equipping rather than doing, then the type of work they often end up doing could be very different.
I’d like to see a whole lot more kingdom mindedness when it comes to staffing, buildings, structure etc. I think we’ve come to see things like having buildings, lots of paid staff etc as normal (wth not having them perceived as abnormal) when if some of the early apostles were to come and visit they’d probably look at a lot of it all in horror. I think perhaps simplicity is a good determiner if we’re doing things the right way. And that doesn’t mean that it isn’t ever right for people to be financially supported by the church - it is just that I think the simpler things are kept the easier it is to see growth happen naturally.
Comment by Tommy
# September 20, 2005,
The other day I sat in a Dairy Queen and eavesdropped on a conversation between three young people (We all do it). The tone of their conversation was that of mistrust in their church as an organization and in the leadership of that organization. They shared about what their “pastors” drove (Escalades, Mercedes) and what kind of houses their “pastors” lived in ($600,000 homes). As I listened, my soul became very uneasy. I hope the people that I serve do not sit and talk about my possessions, but rather the content of my character, or better yet, I would rather them not mention me at all, but the One that I serve. It is my desire to NOT be noticed. As I sit this morning and watch the coming storm, my soul awakened at its beckoning, I wonder what it would be like to move as the wind, leaving only traces traces behind of that which moves me. It is my prayer this morning to “become less and less”, and let the effects of His move be felt. Thanks for the interesting dialogue.
Comment by Hermann du Plessis
# September 20, 2005,
I would certainly agree with this priciple. This is needed and a couple of my friends and I are discussing what the church should look like, and we came up with sort of the same principles.
Always exciting reading your thoughts. When are you going to visit us in SA. I have a couple of commited friends who would like to see this happen.
Comment by Alex
# September 20, 2005,
Hermann, Good to hear from you. I would love visit SA. Lord willing that will happen soon as I hear there may be some mystic warriors there. Regards to Adel.
Comment by Alex
# September 20, 2005,
Tommy,
Personally, I have a distaste for the kind of people that sit around and gossip about what other people drive and where other people live.
Unless it’s with a design to give more to elavate the other person’s situation.
Alex
Comment by Alex
# September 20, 2005,
Sam, exactly.
Comment by Brian Russell
# September 20, 2005,
Hi Alex,
I wonder if the Mystics reinvest the 1% strategically from their “bird’s eye view” of the overall movement. This seems to be faithful to the principle that Paul shares in 2 Cor 8:13-15 “Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality, as it is written: ‘The one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little’”
I am only guessing, but I suspect that the Mystic give of themselves in abundance to those who support the movement.
Comment by Alex
# September 20, 2005,
Brian,
Good to hear from you. Yes, one of the strategic keys will be to create f2f connection points not only for the mystic but also for other posters of threads who are working in a more traditional vein.
The Mystic is an advocate for all who seek to extend the kingdom.
Comment by Larry
# September 20, 2005,
Hi, Alex…
“Larry, if you like the electronic aspects …you’ll love The Mystic.”
Could be… but so far there’s a whole lot of sizzle with little steak. I was pretty well convinced the whole story was a fictive experiment until your latest. Now I’m not so sure..
As I see it, churches do the best they can. Even if you’re offering steak, people have to pick up a knfe and a fork and start eating. If the congregation doesn’t want to live a certain way, no amount of prodding is going to make it happen.
Now, if the church leaders are both offering steak and eating it, then everyone else will learn from their example. Many churches have gotten used to eating sawdust, so it may take time to show changes.
Which brings up one big problem: God made 6.6 billion unique people, and churches reduce that to five or six types. 16, I guess, if you’re a Myers-Briggs fan. Not everyone learns the same way, and one person’t individual expression of God’s delight in her life might be just the thing that keeps someone else from reaching for a pistol in order to quit. If personal expressions aren’t allowed, no connection is possible.
I’m all lin favor of mysticism. I know that very little of the world is comprehensible in intellectual terms. At the same time, I know that the most airy and wonderful sand sculpture ever made stays in my mind until a real tool hits the real sand.
Steak, man, please.
Comment by Sam Radford
# October 13, 2005,
I had lunch with a friend of mine from Texas yesterday who has come with a team to plant a church here in Sheffield, England. We got to talking about some of the thoughts raised by this thread and he shared how all the paid staff at their HQ church get the same salary. From the lead pastor to the receptionist, everyone gets paid the same (with more if you are married, have kids etc). I thought this was a pretty cool kingdom way of paying staff that makes it clear that everyone is of equal value. What do you think?
Comment by Alex
# October 13, 2005,
Sam, both wonderful and horrible ideas come out of Texas. Why do you think this idea is a good one? I think it tends towards the latter.
Comment by Sam
# October 13, 2005,
I am not sure this is something I’d ever look to implement, but I guess I like the heart behind it. They are wanting to send out a message that everyone is of equal value and that whilst the role of the senoir pastor and the receptionist are very different, they are both sacrificing and using their gifts and talents towards the same cause.
Clearly whilst there is (I think) a positive message that can be sent out through doing that, I am definitely aware that there are a lot of negative ones that can result too.
Why would you veer towards the idea being horrible?
Comment by testanchor959
# October 15, 2005,
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Comment by Anne Jackson
# November 6, 2005,
Alex,
Thank you for once again for guiding me to see beyond my everday view, to wonder, to question, to seek, pray, and continue walking while doing all those things.
aj
Comment by Terry Gallagher
# November 7, 2005,
Alex,
i like to think of myself, as most of us do, as kind of a “different” person. One that sticks out in a crowd. someone who makes a lasting impression, either negative or positive. when we met, briefly, I knew that I was in the pesents of a man that I would not soon forget. I can’t stop thinking about the two missionaries in Germany, and now you went and filled my head with even more ideas of grandeur. A world where money doesn’t equal happiness, or security. that following Christ while having passion can once again coexist.
following my passions is the goal of my life, yet I find that the older I get the less passion I possess, making my life roll to a stop while I sit and wondering which way to turn when in all actuality it doesn’t matter which way i turn. i’m not going anywhere!
listening to a guy like you gives a guy like me hope. coming from a guy like me that may not mean a whole lot to a guy like you, but to a guy like you from a guy like me i know that it makes a guy like me glad to be like a guy like you.
Thanks for being…
Terry
Comment by Nicolas Nelson
# November 15, 2005,
I love the idea of formally affirming an individual’s own creative generosity as just as valid form of “Kingdom stewardship” as turning that money over to a religious 501(c)3 organization (church, parachurch, agency, charity, etc).
Deanna, you gotta run that ad!
Maybe I should put an ad out in Craigslist…SEARCHING FOR MYSTIC WARRIORS IN DENVER AREA…THOSE WHO GO TO SLEEP ALREADY DREAMING…THOSE SEARCHING FOR A PLACE TO BELONG…THOSE WHO STEP OUT INTO THEIR WORLD EACH DAY LOOKING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE…THOSE WHO MUST…
Comment by Jim
# November 15, 2005,
Who is stoping anyone from doing what you have suggested. I would encourage it greatly BUT NOT at the expense of Christs bride. I am not talking about the local church, they have there issues but we have to trust the Godly men that are in place as elders and leaders of these churches. We all however make up the universal church that must be maintained as it is Christs bride and part of that is financialy. Yes, do the other things but sacraficialy not instead of…
Comment by Alex
# November 16, 2005,
Jim,
welcome to the mystic.
you write: “Who is stoping anyone from doing what you have suggested?”
no one. we are among those that encourage it.
but i don’t understand your point. how would giving generously to celebrate God’s Kingdom with the unreached and serving others with our resources harm the universal church?
Pingback by words are not enough » The Pay It Forward Butterfly Effect…
# May 10, 2006,
[…] Kevin Bussey’s post on “church police.” Alex McManus’s post on “kingdom capital.” […]
Comment by Home
# September 9, 2006,
Nice ideas. I came across it while researching “reverse tithing.” I think the concept you are talking about in part is freewill offering, which is actually above and after tithing, if we are to follow Biblical example of what Jesus said and did.
If we really want to be a new testament church body, it would be good to remember that they didn’t take their money from the church and have parties to celebrate God. Not that it would be wrong to have parties to celebrate God, I think that is a downright good idea.
They ‘continued daily in the temple, and they sold their possessions, having all things common’ - see Acts, particularly ch 2-5. They evidentally did not live together in a commune, because they also went from house to house, so it is apparent they sold whatever possessions which were not neccessary to the supporting of their household, in order to give to those in need.
They used what they had to supply the needs of others within the church. They were instructed to ‘do good to all, especially those who are of the household of faith’ - so it does not appear it was even used first and foremost to reach the lost but rather to help the church body of believers.
(Acts 2:44-47/Galatians 6:10/actually, many verses of the Bible support this- the giving of and to the Macedonians, the supporting of the widows and orphans in the church, the supporting of pastors and teachers who are workman worthy of their hire, etc)
Although Paul did not accept money himself, he did advise the church to pay its workers who laboured in the Word.
My quest is not to take money away from the church (Jesus, who commended the widow for giving to the church from her poverty, also said we ought to tithe - but not to leave out the greater issues of judgement, mercy, faith, and the love of God - Matthew 23:23/Luke 11:42 - KJV, anyway, & also in the Greek). Giving to the church is a joy and much is accomplished in God’s Kingdom through that.
My hope is to go above and beyond the tithe, which is given to the storehouse, beyond missions which are given to various organizations and missionaries, and to give freewill offerings to help the poor, to spread the gospel in various venues.
So how does one make the transition of giving all while making sure Uncle Sam gets his part (as Jesus also told us to do), and the daily cares of life are all still cared for (bills, kids college tuition, bills, kids college tuition, bills…lol)? Incrementally, I am supposing.
For me, it’s a challenge that we could all take up to some degree. I see the main issue as breaking out of the old thinking of what is secular and what is spiritual, and serving God with my whole life.
In the New Testament, there is not much distinction given in some ways between clergy and laity. We (the church) are all kings and priests in God’s Kingdom. We are all commissioned to go into all the world and preach the gospel and teach and make disciples. We are all responsible on a personal level for what we are doing with our finances to further God’s Kingdom.
That, after all, is the purpose of our finances:
“But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.” (Deut. 8:18)
Comment by Alex
# September 10, 2006,
Home,
Thanks for your input.
We’re not really talking about taking money “from” the church. We are the church. We’re talking about rearranging our priorities in giving.
We are not a storehouse. We’re not even a dispensation center. We are a people who are called to make the world a better place in the name of Jesus.
I think that two first steps would be to show concern for the poor and to invite those yet-to-believe to celebrate with us.
Comment by Home
# September 10, 2006,
In effect, though, you are talking about taking money from the church as Jesus taught it. He said we ought to tithe, and he commended someone (who was dirt poor) for giving all she had to the church (the organization), rather than for giving to someone else who was poor. He then later spoke several times through Paul & Luke to say the same thing.
(references in prior post)
Bear with me a bit, because I have a couple of questions for you…
Giving to the poor is not mentioned as an evangelism tool at all that I can recall in the Bible… can you? It is seen as a good deed, it is seen as a way to support the church (body & organization), and it is seen as a way to give to God.
It’s a great idea, if it is giving over-and-above rather than instead-of the way God established in His Word. His ways are higher than our ways. To simply go about establishing our own ideas of what giving should be doesn’t acheive His Purposes His Way evidentally, or He would rescind the idea of giving to the church (organization) in the NT, which He doesn’t choose to do, but rather He emphasizes it.
I also think it (giving) is fun and exciting and helpful if we are also still following the way God planned it.
I like to give, it is just really personally rewarding, whether it is private or known, and whatever spiritual benefit there is to it is added to the joy of giving itself-that’s the way God is and sets things up it seems, doesn’t it?
However, if we are just attending MSU (Make Stuff Up), well, man’s ideas are no substitute for God’s.
Yes, he said you (people) are the church, but he also recognized the organization of the church and the giving of money to that church first. Not only in the OT but also in the new.
Interestingly, when speaking of giving money to the poor, Jesus said, “the poor you will have with you always” and he recommended that money be spent on his burial preparations rather than on the poor!
Anyway, my questions are these: one, I have read about people giving Rick Warren flack for his claim of reverse tithing while giving the money to organizations under his control. (bear in mind I tried to read his book and was bored with it, so I am not a Rick Warren junkie, I am trying to see if what he is doing is wrong in some way): What is the problem?
If he is not personally using the money but it is being spent on work for God and His People (whether through his organizations or not), then what is the problem? If it keeps money from having to be taxed (legally and morally, that is), then isn’t that a good thing? Why the issue? Whether his heart is right or full of pride is before God to judge, not us, so, my question is; is there something intrinsically wrong with what he is doing with his money or are people just bad-mouthing him?
My other issue is that i am wondering - is it possible, over time, to do the same sort of thing (obviously on a smaller scale), while still paying taxes and bills? How do people go about it?
What do you think?
I like your site!
Comment by Tom Hackett
# January 4, 2007,
http://alternativechurch.net
The Alternative Church and Chaos Theory
I am thinking that the church has functioned in an “ordered” paradigm for 1700yrs (since Constantine). In general, we don’t seem to be doing well as it relates to the population of the planet or growing in a way you might expect. If anything it seems that the traditional church model is becoming irrelevant and impotent in many ways (no offense intended). It seems that where the church has not had organization or “systems” because of legal issues or persecution it has grown at its fastest pace. My thinking is that the traditional church has become trapped and controlled by system and organizational dynamics regardless of the intentions of those involved. I propose an alternative approach…let’s let the church go and see what happens. Lets acknowledge, empower, encourage and facilitate the micro church in it’s multitudes of expression and allow them to become what their “tongue, tribe & nation” need them to be. Let’s facilitate the “chaos” of the power of God to express itself without the control that systems and organizations put on them.
The idea is that God and the power of the gospel is somewhat if not very chaotic by our standards. It has to do with the sovereignty and the omnipotence of God. What appears to be chaos to us is very manageable to God.
Our traditional church paradigms are very much a controlled system that we (humans) are comfortable with (hierarchical and lineal) but get in the way of and slow down the dynamics and the power of the gospel. The Alternative Church is an attempt to allow the power of the gospel to take a less “resistant” path (through independent micro churches) to the development of the Macro church.
By allowing the “church” to function without control in a sense we are putting our trust in God and the promises made by Jesus that He would send us the Holy Spirit as a guide, teacher and that He would intercede for us. The Alternative Church is an attempt to put the control of the church back in God’s “chaotic” and powerful hands (micro churches) and take away the controls imposed by human systems and organizations.
Chaos Theory:
A branch of science that deals with systems whose evolution depends very sensitively upon the initial conditions.
Chaotic systems are very sensitive to initial conditions; small changes in those conditions can lead to quite different outcomes.
What basic conditions are appropriate for becoming a micro church?
Doctrine?
Use of web based tool
Doing what a church does
What will training look like? How much can you influence a chaotic system?
Chaos theory and social constructs?
* How will the same conditions affect different social constructs (ethic groups, cultures, ages, sexes, subcultures, etc.)?
Comment by Nicolas Nelson
# January 6, 2007,
um, Tom, I don’t think you read any of the preceding posts in this thread, or even the original post on which we are all supposed to be commenting. Nice book you are promoting, though… next time try to tie your book into the thread of the conversation, okay?